General Discussion Thread #10

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Note: Original post date published on:  Mar 11, 2009 @ 10:32
Post date changed to 12/01/08 for filing and archive purposes only.

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96 Responses

  1. As I was reading Kirk’s enlightening article ‘Sex and the city” a memory flashed in my wee little mind. I was at work, around Christmas time, and a patrolman for JDP came in and got to talking. He was a really nice guy, I enjoyed our conversation. of course we hit on the murders and he floored me by saying he was scared to go out on patrol anymore, afraid he might be the one to find the next body. How sad is that…..but to me, it speaks volumes .

  2. g8trgirl– When I suggested that the timeline and other released information suggested the murders might be divided into two groups, I was referring back to a memo you posted under “timeline”. Perhaps the actual time period from the victim being last seen to the body being discovered tells us less than where the body was placed, that is, whether the body was placed somewhere that the perp might expect a fast discovery ( eg. the roadway) or a slower discovery ( in a canal). Whether it is one killer or two, I don’t know, but I do believe there does appear to be a careful attempt on the killer’s part to balance his short term risk of being caught ( during the period of time between the murder and the disposal of the remains) against the long term risk of being caught ( by not only taking measures to reduce forensic evidence, but also perhaps by taking measures that misdirect law enforcement). I realize that there are a number of postings on this website that state the killer sometimes seems to be an organized killer and at other times a disorganized killer and perhaps that suggests two killers. I would hope this group would focus on discussing the killer who is organized for three reasons: 1) an organized killer might feign being a disorganized killer, but a disorganized killer cannot feign being an organized killer; 2) a disorganized killer will inevitably make mistakes and is more likely to be caught, and 3) we know we have at least one organized killer to track.

  3. If I follow your line of thinking and two killers are involved I would break it up as follows:

    Loretta Chaisson found in a canal.
    Ernestine Patterson found in a canal.
    Kristen Lopez found in a canal.
    Crystal Zeno found in a canal.

    Whitnei Dubois found on/near a road.
    Muggy Brown found on/near a road.
    Brittney Gary found on/near a road.

    Side note: Muggy and Brittney were said to be best friends.

  4. Perhaps, but then you have to deal with such possibilites as the organized killer responding to the copycat killer by copying the copycat. Instead, I would focus on the organized killer who is less apt to get caught and who, after all, might be responsible for all or at least most of the murders. Working with our limited facts, the question I have is why does one killer would leave some in a canal and others on or near a road?

  5. Canal dates of murder are 2 in 2005, 1 in 2007 and 1 in 2008.

    Road dates of murder are 1 in 2007 and 2 in 2008. It should be noted that 2 were best friends and one of the victims knew 2007. It kind of goes with the reasoning that they are connected by a common thread. But, it could be a copycat but which one?

  6. You guys keep brainstorming, you’re doing good!!

  7. Crystal Zeno doesn’t fit entirely with the patterns. She was found in a dry canal. She also wasn’t pegged with alcohol and drugs in her system and no cause of death. She wasn’t identified for 2 months due to the advanced state of decomp. This means she was missing longer than the others. Does anyone know when she was reported missing? Was her husband questioned and did he report her missing? Is this the copycat murder?

  8. Law enforcement has released less information on Crystal Zeno’s death and I would suggest it is easier to evaluate which murders were by the same killer than it is to figure out which one or more was done by a copycat. I know it is stating the obvious but we must assume that the first murder was not done by a copycat and that the second murder was the first one that could have been done by a copycat. Although the first three victims were all placed in canals, we know that neither Loretta Lewis nor Kristen Lopez had her throat cut and that they both had drugs in their bodies. So comparing those two deaths may tell us something that we miss if we include the death of the second victim, Ernestine Patterson, who was apparently killed in a different manner. I would really like to know which of the deaths have been attributed to an organized killer and which murders appear disorganized, but I don’t. We do know that Loretta Lewis body was found southwest of Jennings and that Kristen Lopez’ body was found even further southwest of Jennings. From what has been released, it would appear that the first and third deaths involve the same organized killer. I attribute these two deaths to the same organized killer because a disorganized killer, though he wants to avoid detection as much as an organized killer, he is short sighted and less apt to be interested in spreading out the evidence of his crime. It is more difficult to figure out how the second and fourth murders fit. Comments anyone?

  9. To me the 2nd and 4th murders don’t fit.

  10. cp– Perhaps the second and fourth murder don’t fit, but the fourth murder certainly fits alot better with the first and third murder than the second murder because there were not apparent injuries to the body of Whitney Dubois, just as there were not apparent injuries to the body of Loretta Lewis or the body or Kristen Lopez and unlike the case of Ernestine Patterson. If the Whiteny Dubois murder was comitted by the same perp as the first and third murder, then why was there the change from leaving the body in a canal to leaving the body in a road?

  11. Ernestine and Muggy both had their throats slit so we can assume this is the cause of death. Although Ernestine was found in a canal the crime may have taken place nearby and she was pushed into the canal.

    Muggy was found in the road and we have to believe that the crime was committed there as it would be difficult to transport a severely bleeding body around.

    Although it has been said that both victims were drug users it hasn’t been mentioned (here at least) that large amounts of alcohol and drugs were found in toxicology reports. Either the MO is different for these victims or they couldn’t or wouldn’t be subdued easily causing the killer to shut them up in a radical way.

  12. I find your comment that both Ernestine and Muggy had large amounts of alcohol and drugs in their system as that fact alone would support your conclusion that the knife may have been used as a back up to deal with someone who could not be easily subdued, but I can’t accept your conclusion that Muggy was killed near where she was found. Yes, it may be difficult to transport someone who is bleeding, but once the person dies, and the bleeding stops, then the person may be transported though one would think the forensic trail ought to be greater unless great care to leave no trail was taken.

  13. cp–I did a poor edit job. I find your comment…”interesting”.

  14. I found this article about a person dying from a slit throat (Nicole Simpson) and the copious amounts of blood. It is also true that the body continues to bleed from the injury even after death.

    http://www.wagnerandson.com/oj/ng_739.htm

    If Muggy was killed inside a home and moved in a vehicle there would be no way to rid both of blood evidence.This killing may be a copycat due to the bleach being applied and as far as we know this hasn’t been done before. The killer has relied on the elements to remove trace evidence prior to Muggy’s murder it seems. That is one reason I think she may have been killed where she was found.

  15. Consider this. Whitnei and Muggy have in common that both were found in a road. The fact that bleach was used to reduce or eliminate forensic evidence on Muggy suggests an organized killer and the killer of Loretta Lewis and Kristen Lopez appears to have been an organized killer. I apologize to anyone who doesn’t like conjecture, but I pose the question is there a reasonable chance that Muggy, the fifth victim, was killed by the original perp in order to copy the modus operandi of a copycat killer who was responsible for the death of Ernestine Patterson. Based on the limited information released, I come to the conclusion that either all cases are by the same perp or the second murder was the copycat murder and in the fifth murder the original killer copied the copycat. If that is true, then that might explain why after the murder of Muggy Brown, law enforcement quite rightly tightened up on the information released. It would also explain why the sheriff was reluctant to use the tag “serial killer”.

  16. cp– I see your point. Thinking it through a bit more, if Muggy were killed where she was found, then that would be an even greater reason to believe that the original perp killed Muggy to copy a copycat and thereby misdirect law enforcement. That would make sense. However, if she were killed somewhere else, it would not preclude the possibility that the perp adapted his methods to that of another killer. I don’t know. I do know it gets much more difficult to go beyond the fifth murder because details are more scarce and so I will leave it at that. It was good corresponding with you. Again, I apologize to anyone who might not like conjecture.

  17. cp- maybe the killer/s are experienced in covering up evidence such as blood spills. Maybe they took the initiative to get the supplies they needed to hide the evidence. I know we’re not being told everything in the released information so they are withholding information that is pertinent. This information can not be disclosed to us. I know it’s frustrating trying to figure all this out, but when we don’t have all the information to go on it’s nearly impossible to get it correct. Don’t give up, it’s awesome how you’re brainstorming!

  18. could the murders be taking place at some deer camp near the bayou? Quick clean up, not much chance of discovery, and if some blood remains, who’s to know if it is animal or human?

  19. I have reread most of the articles and done comparisons between the victims and what is known about their deaths.

    Only 2 of the victims had their throats slit and I will say that Ernestine was probably killed near the canal and thrown in. Muggy was killed right where she was found as one of the articles eluded to that. (wished I had copied). She was the only victim found fully clothed and her white shirt was stained to pink after bleach was thrown on her and mixed with her blood. She was found 6 hours after she was last seen on a gravel road leading to the police shooting range.

    All of the other victims’ COD was either not established or not released. This leads me to believe that it was a soft kill like strangulation.After decomposition, it would be difficult to make that determination but it is the MO for many killers. The remaining victims were either partially clothed or nude. This indicates a sexually motivated crime…also the MO for many killers.

    Of all the victims, Muggy’s murder does not follow a pattern and for this reason I believe that she was targeted outside of the SK. In other words, this was a personal murder. She was found out in the open and was found in a hurry and that was planned IMO.The bleach was brought to the crime scene….call this a murder, a planned hit vs.random stalking.

    Although Whitnei’s body was found on a rural road she wasn’t killed there….she was dumped there. This could be because the SK had run out of time and this death could be his gravest error. So, other than location all else fits the pattern noticed in the other deaths.

    Ernestine’s throat was slit but all other info follows and this could be because the alcohol and drugs were not as effective on her.

  20. cp – a fractured hyoid bone is usually the result of trottling or strangulation, so if this were the case then that could be determined the cod easily!

  21. The term trottling comes from the UK

  22. I agree jfd61, if the hyloid is fractured. Here is a discussion with Dr. Baden and a student regarding homicides in younger people.

    You said previously that the hyoid is not broken in all cases of manual strangulation. Can you give an estimate of the percentage of cases in which the hyoid is broken?

    The hyoid bone is a little U-shaped bone just on top of the Adam’s Apple. The Adam’s Apple is thyroid cartilage and it forms the big part of the larynx. As we get older, our cartilage and the hyoid bone get calcified and manual strangulation is more likely to cause a hyoid fracture. When we’re teenagers, both of these structures are very pliable — like gristle — and if a young person or child is strangled, they may not suffer a fracture of any of the bones of the neck. But above approximately forty years of age, the majority of manual strangulation cases will show significant trauma to the neck: hemorrhages around the windpipe and fractures of the hyoid bone or thyroid cartilage. Below age forty, when the those structures are not yet calcified, it’s less than fifty percent of manual strangulations in which hyoid fractures occur.

  23. This link may assist some of you in brainstorming:

    http://www.nmsoh.org/homicide_investigator_checklist.htm

  24. Here’s an article of a potential SK case:
    http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/30/State/Were_bodies_the_work_.shtml

    Here’s another article where the victims were without socks or shoes and very closely resembles that of Jeff Davis Parish:
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,231299,00.html

    Another interesting article about “serial dumping” as the sheriff uses:
    http://www.investigativepsych.com/encounteranddeath.pdf

    Expert in SK gives his view on things:
    http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2008/05/21/20080521mr-serialexpert0522.html

  25. I have a strong suspicion that Muggy’s death was due to the drug scene directly. Either she owed some money to the dealer or he became impatient with her. I believe he was trying to emulate the other killings by murdering Muggy. I also think she had some threatening messages as witnessed by her behavior and noted by family and friends prior to her murder. Her fear was based on known fear about her situation. IMO.

    It seems that Richard was chummy with lots of the victims. Does anyone know if he is the dealer? We know he has lots of priors and pretty wild looking too. I don’t think he is the SK but I wouldn’t rule him out for Muggy’s murder. Again, JMO.

  26. Yes, we do. I had to read a lot and get the paper and pen out and write down everything. It was then that the pattern was clear to me.

    I would still consider Ernestine a possible for someone other than the SK. It is just most of the details fit. But, slit throat doesn’t. So, up in the air on that one..

  27. cp–You and I would both agree Muggy’s murder was not sexually motivated. If you are correct, then leaving the body near a law enforcement range has no significance to the serial killer cases and that would mean I have read too much into the possible significance of leaving Brittney Gary near Keystone Road as an allusion to the the Keystone Cops. I just believe that the same sort of warped sense of humor that might make such an allusion might also be a person that would get a charge out of misdirecting police with a killing that fit the MO of some other killer. I also have a hard time grappling with the short cooling period that would exist between Loretta Lewis and Ernestine Patterson if the Ernestine Patterson murder was done by the serial killer. Do we agree that the first, third and fourth murder all appear to be by the same perp?

  28. cp- I know what a hyoid bone is and where it’s located. There or many other factors that can determine if a person has been indeed strangled!
    Internally! I follow your way of thinking though.
    keep on digging for more information. I’m impressed at how determined you are.

  29. Mr. Menard– That is an excellent article on geographical profiling. What are your thoughts on it?

  30. Sleuthing888, I looked at the geographical profiling too. If this model is correct than the BD is away from the sk’s home and chances are the fatal encounter was in Jennings proper. This alludes that the sk lives north of Jennings or the northern perimeter.

  31. To answer the question of Frankie Richard being a drug dealer, well he is just the opposite, in fact, he is an addict and has been for years. You are correct, he is extremely wild looking and gives off a very unpleasant vibe. My opinion, all of these murders are connected. The victims are all connected in some way. I believe that each of the girls knew this person. It was a mutual contact/contacts. Again, this is only my opinion.

  32. Sleuthing-To answer your question about the geographical profiling link I posted-

    Rossmo speaks of a buffer zone but I have to agree with the others that disagreed with Rossmo because there is also a security zone or what we call a safe zone. The SK (s) won’t stray too far into unfamiliar territory and while he/she may take chances and certain risks, those risks are calculated and I don’t believe that he/she will drive through town or too far away with a dead body in their vehicle looking to dump the body.

    This is a place where they can take the back roads from where ever the victims were killed and still maintain a low profile while doing so. I believe that in the last victim, Brittany Gary, that he/she made a mistake and that will be their downfall. We’ve gathered other evidence that we’ve turned over to LE over the weekend but we can’t disclose what that is and we’ll just have to wait and see if it turns out to be beneficial or not.

  33. Thank you for your reponse. Your choice of words, “he/she”, has me scratching my head though. I will just assume you are keeping an open-minded view of matters and let it go at that.

  34. cp– As you say, if the model is correct, then your conclusion would be correct. I just wonder if the model might not be geared for a large metropolitan area and not work so well in a small town environment. The article is definitely a good read and food for thought.

  35. Well I used the words he/she because when Frankie Richard was arrested, Hannah Conner and Tracy Chassion was arrested with him. I always keep an open mind but we can’t leave any stone uncovered.

    As I noted earlier, my investigators found something out that was very important to this investigation and turned it over to LE and we’ll know if its beneficial to the investigation once they follow up on it. He/she doesn’t mean anything except that there may be accomplices involved and we have reason to believe that some accomplices may be female when Tracy and Hannah was arrested.

  36. sleuthing 888, those were my thoughts as well. But, a large metro area is still broken up by neighborhoods that some people don’t venture away from too much. So who knows!

    Kirk, I truly hope the new info will put these crimes into the justice system sooner than later.

    • The following is a description of a person (poi) that resides in JDP. The person that sent it to me, who also resides in JDP, wishes to remain anonymous. The poi was reported to the FBI field office in New Orleans via an out-of-state-source as the JDP resident who knows the poi was hesitant to contact local LE or the Task Force. It is also my understanding that several friends of the poi have voiced suspicions about him. As an interesting side-note….the FBI seemed much more interested in WHO was reporting the tip rather than the person being reported.

      – in his 30’s
      – clean cut to look at
      – drives a two door pickup
      – lived in JDP all his life
      – very strong, muscular, not a body builder type
      – very interested in crime scene forensics and used to study up on it
      – mom has and is addicted to prescription meds
      – dad was an abusive alcoholic
      – been to rehab for crack and other drug abuse more then once
      – has a house that he sometimes stays in, located less then 9 miles from the last murder
      – was married once
      – hates women, will not look at them in the eye at times, other times very friendly and easy going, a likable guy, ready to help anyone.
      – quick to anger at a moments notice, will fight anyone, at times without provocation, usually hurts them
      – known to carry a knife and loves to throw them
      – been seen in Jennings, panhandling for money to buy his drugs
      – stays a lot in the south part of Jennings
      – steals from family and friends (well known around town for this as he brings the stolen items to the locals to sell)
      – always in trouble with the law, family always gets him out of it
      – can’t hold a job for long
      – used to be a really good diesel mechanic, now does it on the side
      – goes to others houses after midnight, wakes them up to try to get money, gets angry if you won’t give him any
      – has no conscious
      – when he does look at you his eyes are dead
      – a noticeable change in him after Rita

  37. Silence, I read earlier, your opinions on the public going to vote and voting for the best candidate possible. It was great and wish lots of people in the community could read your post. I don’t live there, but would love to hear your opinions? If you don’t mind answering, who would your votes go to in this Jennings election coming up?

    You sound so strong on your opinions, I’m willing to bet your opinion may count if heard.

  38. We’re all aware that 3 of the victim’s deaths occurred in the month of May. Something else I found interesting, if the dates are accurate, is that 3 of the victims were last seen alive on a Wednesday which would be victims 4, 5 and 6. Incidentally, those three were found in the tight rectangular cluster around Racca, Cutting, Lacour.

  39. the poi you described is not him or the person responsible for all of them….if it was one murder i could maybe see it but not 7………..he isnt organzied enough to not get caught after this long especially living right under everyone’s noses……….

    …sounds like this poi is behavior disordered, beaten as a child and rejected by his peers growing up especially when it came to dating women…coupled with drugs…this person is bad news…..

  40. but then again g8trgirl you never know…..taking into account an anonymous person may know this man personally enough to know he has severe emotional problems…..fbi should be allowed to know who gave this info……..

    …i understand the reason why they wanna know who provided this info because this person could be very valuable in solving a big case with several homicides involved….

    …was this info turned in with a name?

  41. The poi has problems and fits with a disorganized killer. His profile is the type of guy that I would suspect murdered Muggy and possibly Ernestine. Especially knowing that bleach was thrown on Muggy’s body and he likes knives and forensics and is given to wanting money from people. Maybe she didn’t have any?

  42. It’s not him

  43. db….the person acting as the middle-man between the tipster and FBI did give their name and phone number in case of follow-up questions.

  44. Another thing to look at for the killer(s) is:

    if one has hurt themself by lifting something heavy like a body, usually one goes to the medical doctor for anti inflammatory, or pain management, chiropractor, physical therapist, or massage therapist.

    That could be another reason why some bodies were left closer to the road than others. He/She/They didn’t want to make things worst on their back. It doesn’t even have to be a low back problem, it could even be a neck or mid back problem, shoulder, etc…

    If you have a (poi), you can always look at medical records. That could also be why there was a gap, maybe surgery took place or a long recovery.

  45. considering how close the profile is to what has been posted on several sites, I would wonder how JDPK could be so sure that “it is not him”. Do they have full knowledge of the killer/s? Or have they witnessed something and failed to turn it in?

  46. LiF….you echo my thoughts as well. I would certainly appreciate an explanation to back up such an abrupt statement as “it’s not him”.

  47. I am hoping that jdpk has some new info that we aren’t aware of at this time. There wasn’t any hesitation in the statement.

  48. jdpk……the comment made is eerie to me! You have definitely caught my attention…sounds like you are pretty sure, and by the way, what does jdpk stand for? You got me wondering!

  49. jdpk, well, what is your profile on the killer(s)?

  50. somebody just trying to spark questions….jdpk is no one……has no idea or clue what is going on…..

  51. What’s commonly referred to as a “troll” in internet lingo.

  52. Let’s get back on track.

    Brittany, I think I made an error with another poster. Was Whitnei seen with Richard or was Muggy hours before she disappeared?

  53. Whitnei was last seen alive at Frankie Richard’s house.

  54. Thanks. Sorry about the error.

    Wonder how Cassidy thinks he can pull off that kind of expense and not get reprimanded? His business trips would make AIG executives green with envy.

  55. Well….I was hoping he was a “stand-up” kinda guy but I guess not.

  56. Well, at least NOW we know why JDP can’t afford a proper investigation of the murders. Vacations, good meals, boozing, and foot ball are MUCH more important than murders!

    Maybe it’s an escape mechanism from reality……???

  57. Well, the good news is that this blog is being read by lots of people who may not have been privy to info before. With info comes action…with action comes results. The WWW is unforgiving when improprieties come to light especially when there are 7 murders in a tiny, tiny parish. And, the power holders are living it up on taxpayer dollars.

    Heck, exactly what crimes are being prosecuted in JDP?

    • Heck, exactly what crimes are being prosecuted in JDP?

      As Silence said…….”inquiring minds want to know.”

  58. I agree and what’s worse is that it will take something happening to one of they’re own in order for them to do anything about it. I don’t wish that upon anyone but it’s true!

  59. g8, look up Wendall Miller who was the judge for years he has violations – big time.

  60. LOL….thanks ahlou!!! He’s on the radar as well {{{wink wink}}}.

  61. Why would the only two women of color have their throats cut while all the others seemingly had no apparent trauma? I know causes of death have not been released on the others but the little available that I read said no apparent trauma.

    Were all seven familiar with Frankie R? Would he have a job that established an alibi for any of the seven’s deaths?

    I am still kind of stuck on the placements. Little effort was made to really conceal them. Does this mean that he/she/they are too dumb to hide them creatively or that he/she/they wanted them found?

    Sleuthing888, If the profile is correct about perp age, he/she/they is probably not old enough to know who the Keystone cops were. Not all 25-35 year olds would draw a blank but most would. I think placement there just seemed like a good idea at the time. I like your other thoughts though.

  62. RR….one thing we’re fairly sure of now is the last known location of three of the victims while they were still alive….we just recently learned that info for Crystal & Whitnei:

    – Whitnei was last seen at Frankie Richard’s house
    – Crystal was last seen at the Sonic in Lake Arthur
    – Brittney was last seen at the Family Dollar Store

    Placements of all the bodies….no, not dumb. I think it’s quite methodical actually. It screams “confidence” to me. I think the body locations have a certain degree of strategy to them and are a message to someone…..who, I’m not quite sure of yet.

  63. cp–Now that I have had a bit of time to digest the geographic profiling article that Kirk Menard posted, here are a few thoughts. Tell me what you think. The conclusion reads:
    ” The results of the present study indicate that as the number of murders increases, killers generally cover a narrower area in which to leave the bodies of their victims, until the ninth or tenth offense where the offender may be disposing of bodies quite close to his home. This pattern contrasts markedly with the locations at which the initial contact is made with the victim. All ten of the murders in the sequences studied here tended to be close to the home base of the offender, typically less than a couple of miles from his residence.”

    Let us look for a moment at the data from which these conclusions are based:
    “The mean distance serial killers traveled from their home bases to abduct the first victims in the series was 0.5 miles. The mean distance serial killers traveled from their home bases to abduct their tenth victims was 0.2 miles.”

    So… according to this study, all serial killers must be from the city? Right? I mean if the the farthest that a killer must go to find his victim is a half mile, then killers must live in a somewhat densely populated area. I am sure many do, but that exposes one of the weaknesses in the study. There does not appear to be any factoring of the population density surrounding the killer’s home. I don’t recall the name of the small community from wich Derrick Todd Lee traveled, but it must have been relatively small because he traveled all the way to Baton Rouge to find his victims. Does that mean the study is worthless? No. However, the greater value of the study may be in the other conclusion, that is, the significance of where the bodies are dumped.
    On this point, the study states: ” The mean for all the first body dump locations was 24.5 miles and the mean for all the tenth body dump ten locations was 0.4 miles from the offender’s home.

    The study concludes further:” The finding…that the sites at which they dump the bodies get closer to their home as the series progresses is most intriguing. It accords with the proposal that their offenses become increasingly integrated with their daily lives, and that some sort of growing confidence , or growing determination to reduce the risk of transporting the bodies, leads to the dump sites and the encounter sites being closer together. ”

    If you focus on the part of this conclusion that talks about the dump sites and the encounter sites becoming closer and closer together, the application of the study to the present case is rather confusing because our serial killer seems to zig zag. However, if you focus on the language that refers to a “growing confidence” or a “growing determination to reduce risk” , does that tell us anything about this serial killer’s safety zone?

  64. Red Ranger- I agree with you on the two women of color point. I’m thinking that the killer/s is/are prejudice! So not only did he/they probably come from a very disfunctional family but a family with lots of hatred towards things or people who are different. Things or people that he/they can not control or understand. Along with many other horrible characteristics that i’m sure he/they possess!

  65. Red Ranger– You are right that the under 35 crowd would not know who the Keystone Cops were. The last movie appearance that I recall had the Keystone Cops was Silent Movie directed by Mel Brooks in 1976. If you look at Wikipedia, some believe that the Police Academy movies are a modern day Keystone Cops, but even if that is true, they did not go by that name.

  66. Red Ranger– By the way, when a profile was released in December by the sheriff, I don’t recall there being any mention of an age group. Can you point me in the right direction for that information?

  67. Brownie, thanks for the vote of confidence regarding my choice for voting; however, I’d like to bow out of that one. First, I do not vote in Jennings’ local elections. I am from the middle of the parish and work in Lake Charles, therefore, I am less qualified to make comments than others. I can say, however, that I have lots of family in Jennings and am originally from there and know as much as the next person about the local Jennings politics. Let me just say that I believe we need a total wash-out of anyone who is remotely connected with the local cliques and we’d be better off training someone new to politics than reelecting one from the midst of the current lagoon. During the Edwin Edwards Vs David Duke campaign, a local official said once that he believed Duke to be the better and more honest candidate but he was going to vote Edwards because Edwards knew his way around politics so well. What I derived from that remark was that Edwards could do all the wrong things with ease while Duke would do the right things but with some difficulty. The official was not amused by my appreciation of his own words. It’s the same with the crowd we have now. We’d be better off with a struggling, stumbling but honest beginner than with one of our existing skilled, corrupted experts who can pass evil through our system like s— through a goose. As for who I’d vote for, I stay behind that little curtain when I vote. For the present, we still have that wonderful right. We should use that right until the current administration in DC either taxes it to extinction or writes it out of existence.

  68. The looming question doesn’t fade away though….how do you approach a town; a parish ensconced in controversy?…..when the “leaders” have that questionable veil over them and the majority of the residents turn their heads and look the other way?

  69. Sleuthing888, This was provided by Kirk Menard a few threads back:

    Here is a somewhat profile that we’ve received but can’t be confirmed yet:

    We are told that he is fairly intelligent, more average than those of the company he keeps, could have done good in school but gets bored very easily, probably why he would have quit school, dad was not around/abuse him either sexually, mentally or physically, and left him at an early age, had a domineering mother and family was economically challenged, probably a shy, timid kind of guy, from the local area, probably impotent, never got into any real trouble beyond criminal mischief, more than likely white because the black girls were known to frequent whites more than blacks, we were told probably had a 2.0-2.5 GPA in school, had hopes and dreams of going to college but bored too easily, daydreams often, probably a bedwetter until at a minimum age of 14, more than likely clean shaven, may be between the ages of 25-30 and maybe a little older, give or take a few years

    Not necessarily right or wrong. Profilers have their reasons for doing what they do. This one came up with the age of 25-30. I also wonder why.

  70. Ok question: When the perp is caught, how many believe he/she/they should receive the death penalty, SK or not and how many believe they should received life in prison?

    FYI, most of my clients believe they should receive life in prison to think about what he/she/they have done.

    My thoughts would be to put them in a cell with the pictures/paintings on the wall of each victim and have them start at the victims for each and every day of his natural life. Life in prison, many will tell you, is worse than death.

  71. sleuthing 888, the study is very interesting and I am sure at the time it was a fairly accurate indication/prediction of serial killers. However, the SK’s have gotten more creative in the past few years.

    Derrick Todd Lee’s first victims were close to his home in St. Francisville but his later victims were found in Baton Rouge and some later victims were dumped miles away in the basin.

    There is also Ronald Dominique who was also in south Louisiana and confessed to 21 or so murders. This link describes how and his why. Please note that the bodies were dumped in several parishes in canals, ditches etc.

    http://crime.about.com/od/serial/a/dominique.htm

    The other SK that fits the geographic profile is Sean Gillis of Baton Rouge…he knew a lot of his victims and he dumped the bodies nearby.

    So, if the killings persists the SK may start moving the bodies further out vs. closer in like Lee. Or, he may find a tighter grid like Gillis. Dominque murdered for 9 years until he was caught and that was probably because the victims were dumped far apart.In some ways it depends if the SK wants to be caught…i.e. tired of killing and starts making mistakes.

  72. Derrick Todd Lee also had a girlfriend that lived off of Gardere lane in Baton Rouge. When he was caught and that became known all the big name geographic profilers changed their profiles to reflect the new knowledge.

  73. Kirk- I feel life in prison is a very good way to make the perpetrator reflect on the crimes that he/she/they have committed. Death sentence isn’t cruel enough to justify the torture he/she/they have put their victims through.
    I really like your idea of the pictures on the wall. To add to that it would be just as good to have a continuous rolling video that would play a slideshow of the victims before and after death also having the victims families say what they were like as a person, all the good qualities that they possessed to make them have to see and hear who they have destroyed! Every life deserves a chance to live and make their lives better and he/she/they took that away! They should suffer as they have made their victims suffer and not given an easy way out like the death sentence!

  74. the slit throats could show hate on the poi’s part and a hatred toward black women….for instance, maybe he hated his mother for the way she treated him or maybe his “own kind”(black women) picked on him as a teen and he grew up hating women especially black women cause is black?………jmo….

  75. To the families, I agree let them sit in prison, and if a Law Enforcement is involved, LET THEM SIT in the same cell as everbody else. No special deals because he was a cop. Like a certain cell to himself or a special hall for them. He has had plenty of time to come forward or just STOP. Not sure if that could be done, but if so, give it to him. Where was he when you need protection? Well, why give him protection in prison?

    Silence, people in LCH didn’t like oh Beth Lundy, but she sure went in and cleaned house after McElveen. You know I don’t think it will happen for those folks in Jennings this time around. Too many from the North side is being pampered in one way or another. I say pampered, but also mean they have been helped/saved through real expensive charges. Until something happens to the North side it will not change. It’s pittiful for the South side.

    Hey BRITTANY, you want to start a new career? How about Sheriff? SHERIFF BRITTANY JONES. Sounds good. What you think Silence, someone new, someone strong, someone that could be trained?

  76. FYI, the criminal charges against Nina Ravey have been dropped. Here is an email she submitted to me.

    Just wanted to let everyone know that the district attorney’s office sent me a letter telling me that they had dropped all the charges on me in the rape case involving a prisoner I was caring for. Justice has prevailed all with God’s intervention! Thanks for all the prayers!

    More details as they unfold.

    Sincerely,

    Nina Ravey

  77. Thank you cp and Red Ranger for your responses. I didn’t remember that much about the Derrick Todd Lee case. Red Ranger–The profiler thinks the person is 1) between the ages of 25 and 30, perhaps a bit older and 2) probably impotent? That ought to narrow the pool. Just think. If the local pharmacists were to pull up their lists of persons filling prescriptions for Viagra or other similar medications whose birthday was after 1978, maybe law enforcement would have a short list to use. On second thought, if the perp had filled such a prescription, then that element of the profile might not be there.

  78. Sleuthing888- not only that but this list you were referring to would be violating patient confidentiality laws! HIPPA laws are pretty strict!

  79. What about a court order?

  80. Kirk…..wonderful news on Nina Ravey!!!! Thanks for passing that along.

  81. db- good input about the victims with slit throats!…No doubt there’s definitely some hatred toward the 2 victims of color for some reason or another! Who knows in that sick bastard’s mind what the hate stems from! ….Good Work db!

  82. Seriously, I am no medical expert by any means, but I thought doctors have in recent years figured out that impotence has mostly to do with whether there is proper blood flow circulation, and so, it is more likely to become a problem as people age which is why Viagra works so well. So… if the profiler is right about the impotence, then is he more likely to be wrong about the age group and if the profiler is right about the age group, then is he more likely to be wrong about the impotence? That is my question.

  83. What is erectile dysfunction?
    ED is when a man has problems getting or maintaining an erection long enough for sex. It happens when not enough blood flows to the penis.

    ED isn’t the same for all men. Some men aren’t able to get an erection at all. Others can get one, but it’s not hard enough for sex. And others get a hard erection but lose it before or during sex.

    ED is a medical condition. So in most cases, erections will not improve without treatment.

    A common issue
    ED is more common than you might think. More than half of all men over 40 have some difficulty getting and maintaining an erection. The fact is, guys at any age can experience ED.

    Sleuthing888- As stated above guys at any age can get ED!

  84. how does a profiler come to the conclusion that the poi is impotent?…….is this what statistics reveal on past captured sk’s?…..this is pretty intimate details…id say the profile made an educated guess based on stats…..this is in no way something factual…….in fact if this was actual about the poi then evidently le must know exactly who the killer is and i doubt it seriously….

  85. This is for Mr. Menard,you mentioned a house on Andrew St behind Tina’s lounge.This house was and still is used for drugs and prostitution.Does anyone have info on this situation? maybe we could compare info?

  86. jfd61– You are right, but as the statements you are apparently quoting indicate, it is more common in those over 40. db–You ask a good question of how the profiler would figure that. It is difficult to understand how the profiler could distinguish a serial killer who can’t for physical reasons from a serial killer who won’t to minimize the risk of detection. I guess that is why he gets paid the big bucks.

  87. db-any profiling is speculation but some have extreme accuracy through years of practice and LE experience. Some aren’t so accurate. Some are only half right and some are only half wrong. On the question of impotence, the norm methodology is probably drug use, alcohol use, lack of self esteem, the victims that were targeted, statistics, and other arenas that make up that conclusion. Its an educated guess based on a case by case basis and only a probability. We can’t prove or disprove what the profiler says is correct until a suspect (s) are caught.

    Here’s some interesting facts:

    According to research conducted in the early 1990’s, out of 192 cases where profilers had been called in as investigation support, only 88 were ever solved, and only 17% of that number were cases where criminal profiling was deemed a helpful element of the investigation.

    It’s important to remember, when examining that statistic, that criminal profilers aren’t called in often, and only are when other investigation methods (such as forensics) have failed. The crimes investigated are hard to solve – harder than most.

    There is also a misconception that profiles are intended to be used as evidence, or to directly lead to an arrest.

    This isn’t the case. Criminal profiling can be used, however, to eliminate suspects from a pool.

    Dennis Rader, the BTK killer was predicted a divorced, impotent man. However, Dennis Rader was married with two children.

    However, some are more accurate in their predictions:

    Theory by Mike Berry, Criminal Psychologist from Manchester Metropolitan University. He said: “He may have caught a sexually transmitted disease from a prostitute. He could be impotent and take out his rage on prostitutes. He seems confident and organised, suggesting an older man aged 25 to 40. He seems comfortable in the red-light district, perhaps a regular punter and is probably known to the girls.

    If you want to read more about it, go to this link and in there they discuss SK’s and impotence so its not unusual for profilers to make that determination and most profilers will use the word “probably.”
    http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1995/pdf/1995-v10n01-p011.pdf

    http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=9976&st=0

  88. Thank you Mr. Menard. That will be another good read. A punter? I have learned a new word today. It sounds rather British.

  89. LOL!!!! at punter…

    I added a couple of new articles under LINKS by the way….they’re short reads.

  90. Yes sleuthing, it is British. Kim Rossmo is Canadiana and he is not a behavioral profiler but a geographical profiler and a very good one at that though many people, including myself, sometimes disagrees with his theories. However, profilers can are only as good as the info given to them. I never heard that word “punter” before used in criminology before but ok, if it fits lol.

    You guys are helping tremendously with your brainstorming and that’s how we were able to develop a methodology that was turned over to LE and they believe they have an excellent lead with the information we’ve turned over to them. Please keep brainstorming, the more heads the better on this one and everythone thinks differently. Even a slight opinion may assist us to put more to it that will turn out to be something.

  91. I have thought that this sk got a venereal disease and that is why he targets certain individuals. It is also a possibility that it wasn’t a quick fix like gonorrhea and penicillin but rather a long term medical condition. If this is the case, the sk is much older than his 20’s as it takes years for some side effects to take hold.

    In any case he is going to have a deep seated hatred of women whether his mother spanked him or an aunt rebuffed him or his sisters thought he was a dweeb.

    I hate to say this but the mere fact that 2 victims had their throats slashed and they were black indicates more prejudice than just prostitution. That is hate based.

    The bottom line is he attacks the vulnerable because he can.

    He will be personality disordered when he is identified possibly mixed in with bi polar disorder. He may attack when his bi polar is in the manic stage and/or he is off meds. This could be why there were no murders in 2006. He stayed on his meds….

  92. Well said jfd61, alcohol and drugs to make a person impotent as do many medications that younger people may be on. Many who are impotent do not seek medical attention so may not be prescribed viagra and the like. We once worked a case where a 24 year was accused of statutory rape and the victim was 16. She stated that his penis was hard when he undressed but letters and statements from his doctor stated otherwise. He also had an alcohol (actually, was an alcoholic and drug addict) and that was given as by his physician as a reason for not achieving an erection. Needless to say, the DA had no choice but to dismiss the charges, especially after the female admitted she lied when this new information was brought to her attention. She stated that her reason for lying was because she was out late and supposed to be home at midnight and she needed a ride and called our client and he couldn’t go pick her up so she claimed that she stayed out late with him and had sex with him and her parents called the police.

    So many factors go into impotence, and its not an age factor, although age does play a small part in some cases. I also do trial consulting and attempt to select a jury that will gain my client an advantage in court and alot of psychology goes into it. It’s a form of profiling, however, not criminal profiling. Race very seldom is a factor. Good example is the Atlanta Killings. However, there was a serial killer in the Northwest I believe that targeted prostitutes because his daughter dated a black man and he despised her for it so he targeted prostitutes and those that date black men. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that we have to judge this on a case by case basis. However, I do have good reason to believe that the bodies of these victims were strategically placed in their locations. I cannot disclose the details of that reason but it has been turned over to LE. Sleuthing and cp makes some excellent points as does db and nobody is right or wrong, just depends on the case and jdp61 is correct. The profiler is only as good as the information he/she receives. It’s not 100% failproof but the justice system is not perfect either but its all we have so we have to do the best we can with an imperfect system.

  93. Lots of speculations on the murders….Has anyone thought these young women maybe not all of them may have o dosed on alcohol & drugs and someone dumped the bodies . There are quiet a few white girls hanging out at the house on Andrew Street….

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